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Elizabeth's avatar

That was very interesting and not surprising in the least. I assume my Irish kin suffered greatly in Ireland until they popped over here. Former slave turned brilliant statesman Frederick Douglas references the dire circumstances, as did did W.E.B. Dubois decades later. Unfortunately, their past didn't prevent them from corruption in the US. Perhaps, the system was easy pickings. This is why I didn't trust Obama. He came from the corrupt machinery of Chicago.

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Jake Wiskerchen's avatar

Little known, and even less frequently discussed, is the notion that the NY SAFE Act and other similar laws (known broadly as Exteme Risk Protection Orders, or ERPOs) actually serve as a deterrent to mental health counseling, as well as other forms of medical care.

These so-called "Red Flag Laws" stand as barriers to access because their very language in some states (Colorado and New York, e.g.) specifically list clinicians as parties who can petition for the ERPO. Guns owners, in turn, are then avoidant of the very care they might seek to address their anxiety, depression, PTSD, etc.

Why is this important?

Because suicides comprise ~60% of all gun deaths annually, depending on the year. This includes military veterans. Put differently, an average of 74 people per day die by firearm suicide alone. Mass shootings comprise ~1% of all gun deaths and the largest mass shooting in US history took 59 lives, on October 1, 2017. In other words, we have more than a Las Vegas Mandalay Bay shooting *daily* in this country that no one talks about, but nearly everyone thinks is preventable.

If we want to get serious about solving "gun violence" and curbing unnecessary gun deaths, then we need to attract firearm owners into care, not repel them from it.

For more on innovative efforts that don't step on constitutional rights, check out Walk The Talk America at wtta.org.

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Dave Emanuel's avatar

Excellent points. It should be clear that this country doesn't have a gun problem- it has a mental health problem. If mentally unstable people don't have access to guns, they'll find other ways to kill people. Oklahoma city comes to mind.

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Jake Wiskerchen's avatar

100 percent. You won't find any disagreement on that from me!

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Steven's avatar

"As for penalties, does anyone think someone who commits murder is concerned about the penalty?"

Yes, actually. A quick search suggests that despite the minimum sentence for Murder in NY being 15yr, the median time actually served is only 13.4yr. I suspect there IS a significant deterrence effect difference between likely going away for little more than a decade versus going away forever.

More significantly, a life sentence without parole obviously does a LOT more to cut down on recidivism than letting a convicted killer back on the streets after only 13.4yr.

None of which is to say that disarming innocent citizens is ever good policy, but let's not dismiss the utility of long sentences for gun-using criminals. There IS evidence that particular clause has some good effect.

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Dave Emanuel's avatar

Penalties may have some influence, but I doubt it's significant. Some murders don't care if they die, some commit suicide after a shooting, some believe they won't get caught and some just don't care about consequences.

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Steven's avatar

And some do care about about getting caught, some do care about anticipated sentence length, and some will re-offend as soon as they are released, so the longer the sentence they get the fewer crimes they will commit simply from reduced opportunity. Sentence enhancements have demonstrably worked, including increased sentence duration for use of a firearm in a crime. For example https://www.nber.org/digest/oct98/sentence-enhancements-reduce-crime

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Daniel Melgar's avatar

Thank you for your enlightening post. I definitely learned a lot from it. It reminds me of how bars get their licenses in many cases from the local police departments.

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Dave Emanuel's avatar

Unfortunately, I think the Sullivan Act set the tone for corruption in NYC. Tammany Hall is long gone, but "the melody lingers on".

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Daniel Melgar's avatar

That’s the story of Progressivism. 150 years of bad policies cannot be changed overnight.

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