“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.”- Sixth Amendment The Constitution of the United States of America.
I'm rather tired of this double standard that so many apply to Israel. If it's not absolutely perfect it's not worth having as an ally? Genocide or terrorists getting nukes is fine if our allies don't have the same laws we do? THAT is your argument?
The US is the ONLY nation on this planet which has the U.S. Constitution, yet I don't recall any articles here using our Constitution as the measure of whether we ought to support Ukraine, or Taiwan, or for that matter NATO or any country we've offered defensive assistance to in the face of aggression. It certainly wasn't applied to any of our allies in any previous war and we haven't turned our noses up at anyone who's assisted us before or currently. Last I heard, Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, it's utterly indisputable they were attacked first, and even here normal legal standards for citizens do NOT apply to enemy combatants in a time of war.
Understand this: Israel is our ally. Their support is essential to our own interests in the region. They are fighting and dying to deal with one of our mutual enemies who has engaged in outright terrorism, war crimes, and attempted genocide. So your response is to quibble about their legal practices? Don't you fricken dare try to hide your antisemitism behind your misinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution and call that Conservatism you bigot. Our foreign policy is being determined by those officials we have appointed to do so, in furtherance of our national interests, according to our Constitution.
Israel, quite literally, IS our ally, by law, so don't even pretend to respect our laws and deny that basic fact.
Under U.S. law, Israel is formally designated as a Major Non-NATO Ally. This status provides benefits in defense trade and security cooperation and symbolizes the close relationship. Our two nations cooperate closely on intelligence sharing, counterterrorism efforts, and joint military exercises. Frankly, unless you've served in uniform yourself, the IDF has done more to defend our country than you have.
Ya but they have attacked American troops i.e. the U.S.S. Liberty. Plus Canada was our ally, we started a trade war with them. They aren't trying to drag us into an armed conflict.
Seriously? The Liberty incident was more than a half century ago and our own government investigation officially ruled that it was an accident. That is NOT a valid basis to make any claims about our current relationship with Israel.
Canada, OTOH, has been militarily freeloading on us for pretty much ever without upholding their own obligations while using tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers to promote a trade imbalance with us. Israel has been a much better ally to us than Canada has.
Nope, you're just making shit up out of thin air. Feel free to quote which line of our Constitution you think imposes any legal requirement on the citizens of other countries outside our borders. Israel isn't our colony, territory, or state, they don't fall under our legal jurisdiction by any possible interpretation of our Constitution. The law was passed by our elected representative in full compliance with our Constitution. Our foreign policy is working exactly as designed to advance our national interests.
You're striking me as someone who never acquired a native's or an exam-passing immigrant's understanding of the American Constitution. Interesting.
Article III Section 3 provides that giving aid or support to the enemy is treason. Justice Marshall explained how this applies even to indirect aka networked cause-and-effect connected aid. Israel defines itself as an enemy of our nation, and asserts that the actions it takes in pursuit of undermining our country are combat activities.
Search knesset combat public diplomacy on yandex. You can try google of course, but their results are managed and the company is compromised. You are looking for pages archived on ghostarchive.
Shrug, I not only know our Constitution itself, I went further and read both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers out of my own interest. AFAICT that puts me ahead of better than 99% of my fellow Americans when it comes to understanding our Constitution.
It's clear that I understand it better than you since you apparently aren't even grasping that the designation of "enemy" is one that OUR government must make for it to have any legal relevance under our laws and the designation our government has legally given Israel is 'Ally'. Nothing said or even legally passed by any foreign government overrules our own government in determining who we consider our allies and enemies. You are free to dislike that decision all you want, but it was made by our elected representatives in accordance with the foreign policy authority the Constitution gives them. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-foreign-policy-powers-congress-and-president
Well, you are wrong. You are pulling the same moves hasbara always do: 1/ claiming you haven't or wouldn't do what you've been doing all along ("harsh language "-- your rage over rejection of Israel's claim to special privileges has been apparent from the outset);
2/ the Talmudic argumentation method of swapping an irrelevancy into place of the actual concern. You are also deeply uninvested in actual constitutional and national integrity concerns, claim "tour of duty" all you like.
The IDF also "serve" in the middle east; your claim to have experience there is meaningless.
I don't have to shut up about Israel's attempts to undermine our various articles and amendments just because you don't like it, hasbara.
Allowing, on our side, or causing, on theirs, unregistered foreign agents to undermine our laws and our government is not a "thing countries can do" and remain an unproblematic ally. I guess you missed the fact that this sort of behavior tends to destroy international relations. But Israelis are so deluded as to their impunity, they never do understand how lawful or legitimate activity differs from unlawful or unfriendly.
Nonsense. The oath of office is to protect the Constitution and failure to do so by failing to recognize a foreign enemy who has stated their intention to undermine the Constitution is not a legitimate position.
It's very clear you are hasbara. Trying to elevate yourself by spurious claims that only attempt to catch up to your earlier failures to consider the Constitution is a very clear tell.
You are continually missing the small indicators. You're also demonstrating the well known Zionist contempt for American law while flying into low performing rages in defense of "Israel". There's nothing you can do to hide that.
Wow, tell me you're a full blown crazy antisemitic conspiracy theorist...
We, in accordance with our Constitution, have an entire government of appointed officials, President, Congress, and the Courts, who each have their assigned responsibilities regarding the law and foreign policy, who have the authority to make such determinations and have done so.
According to them, Israel is our ally. Frankly, as someone who has actually served multiple deployments to the Middle East, I quite agree that security cooperation with Israel serves our national interests, as does preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. Our President, in his role regarding foreign policy and Commander in Chief, may choose to provide Israel assistance under our existing treaty agreements. Our Congress, in their role regarding foreign policy, may choose to legally designate Israel otherwise if they collectively choose to, but unless and until they do so the existing law designating Israel as a Major Non-NATO Ally IS the law of the land.
You are free to disagree with our government and say so to your heart's content, but that doesn't make their choice of a foreign policy other than your preferred one qualify as 'unconstitutional'. Usually the only time I see someone online THIS wrong and conspiratorial is in "Sovereign Citizen" court cases. If you're deluded enough to think that you actually have a legal case for ANYTHING; impeachment, charges of treason, whatever else, either bring a lawsuit or run for office. Really though, you just strike me as bigot venting your spleen in a comment section for a cheap dopamine rush. I am a Conservative, Constitutionalist, Republican. Please do NOT associate yourself with any of those terms, it would be an embarrassment to the rest of us.
Repeating the laws that could pertain if Israel hadn't done what it has done is irrelevant. You continually demonstrate that you do not understand law, in a very fundamental way.
Appeal to authority that may have lost its authority is no argument at all.
Time and events do not stand still and events change what is required under law; clauses are triggered by events. Although, it is a common practice for *self-admitted* hasbara to try to collapse antagonistic conditions into one, and label the false set whatever it is that they think will get them what they want. It is a behavior you have in common with them, and have had throughout this tedious exchange. Granted it's also a sign of a struggling comprehension, your fits of rage *in favor of Israel* and your irrelevant grandstanding also point to hasbara.
Another tactic is to try to tell others how to view the person who's not letting you distribute bad information unchallenged. This goes along with your responding to questions about your propaganda involvement with a bunch of hyper-American sounding labels. But real conservative Americans tend to care a lot more about the form of law and whether or not politicians are meeting the national ideals.
I generally disdain harsh language, but nothing less seems appropriate here. You are comedically arrogant, ignorant, and idiotic. You apparently wouldn't recognize an actual patriot even if I sent you a picture of me in my full battle rattle on deployment in a combat zone. THIS "real conservative American" served two tours in Afghanistan after signing up during the surge. Pretty sure my patriotic bona fides beat yours. I have formally and officially been trained in the Constitution and my oath to it.
The person that fundamentally doesn't understand law here is you. Even in the extremely unlikely case that your fringe conspiracies had ANY basis in fact, which seems dubious at best, foreign influence operations (which is the correct category for what you've described) are not illegal in America. https://acf.sais.jhu.edu/distinguish-foreign-influence-foreign-interference.html Actors, either foreign or native, can legally advocate their positions here, even engage in outright propaganda. Nothing you have even accused them of, much less substantiated, much much less demonstrated actually sustained by any legal decision of any appointed official, even rises to the level of being illegal at all, much less high crime like enemy action or treason.
Israel does not have a constitution. It has quasi-constitutional laws and has been unable to get them past the finish line. Furthermore its laws are religiously derived and it has relatively recently defined Israel as a Jewish, therefore religious, state.
Our country, under our constitution, is not supposed to be assisting a state establishment of religion.
Don't even try that "ethnicity" thing: there is not a Jewish race. The belief that there is is part of the religion and it is contrary to scientific fact.
The Knesset, in subcommittee, has stated that our 1st amendment is a problem for Israel's security goals and is a problem that Israel must make go away. American K-12 and the teaching of ideas that don't work for Israel was identified as part of the problem. The same subcommittee, which is in charge of Israel's hasbara and propaganda, has repeatedly stated that Israel's attempts to change our thoughts are combat activity. Israel is therefore actively seeking to undermine Americans' self-determination and our constitution. It is therefore contrary to American interests to support Israel in any way, shape or form, and as Israel considers its actions to be war actions, support for Israel could be treason.
Did you write about the J6 defendants in this same manner when they didn't get the same rights you are speaking of? They were held much longer without a speedy trial than what you are speaking of. Easy to point out speck in someone else's eye with the board in our own.
Sorry, but your bias is showing. You make a good case for our constitution, but fail to give any reason Israel should care. We don't hold Britain or any other "ally" to those standards, why Israel? Heck, we call Turkey an ally. Just think that through. And your case for the ICC 'warrants' is equally jaded. Four ICC judges have been sanctioned by the US gov't because they can't keep their bias in their pants. The only way they (or anyone) can claim "genocide" or "starvation" is to completely re-write the dictionary and change the definitions of both. Is what the IDF is doing wrong? Much of it, absolutely! But you paint with a very broad brush here, I think to hide the fact that you just don't like Israel. Steven has the right of it in his response. Serious double standard here.
I admire that you are willing to question the actions of "your side", John, but I think you're getting caught up in an unsuitable comparison. Israel is our ally, but it is not, nor has it ever been, the United States, or had our Constitution. We are technically politically allied with Pakistan as well, but they certainly have policies which would be rejected - if not looked upon as criminal - here. If we held every ally to our standards, we'd have no allies.
Also, Colonial America and contemporary Israel are vastly different scenarios. I understand your observation about holding fast to your principles even (and sometimes especially) in the face of adversity. But Israel has been on a life raft in the middle of an ocean, besieged since its inception by the surrounding sharks. That has necessitated many creative, outside-the-box approaches to maintaining their survival as a people. While I'm not saying I agree with everything Israel does or has done, none of us are in their shoes to legitimately criticize their actions.
Aside from some early settlement activity (not that they had any choice after the Shoah), everything which has been suffered by Arabs at the hands of Israelis could have been prevented by simply accepting their existence. Instead, they chose hatred.
Israel does what it feels it has to do, whether you or I or anyone else thinks differently. That shouldn't make them any less our ally.
I'm rather tired of this double standard that so many apply to Israel. If it's not absolutely perfect it's not worth having as an ally? Genocide or terrorists getting nukes is fine if our allies don't have the same laws we do? THAT is your argument?
The US is the ONLY nation on this planet which has the U.S. Constitution, yet I don't recall any articles here using our Constitution as the measure of whether we ought to support Ukraine, or Taiwan, or for that matter NATO or any country we've offered defensive assistance to in the face of aggression. It certainly wasn't applied to any of our allies in any previous war and we haven't turned our noses up at anyone who's assisted us before or currently. Last I heard, Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, it's utterly indisputable they were attacked first, and even here normal legal standards for citizens do NOT apply to enemy combatants in a time of war.
Understand this: Israel is our ally. Their support is essential to our own interests in the region. They are fighting and dying to deal with one of our mutual enemies who has engaged in outright terrorism, war crimes, and attempted genocide. So your response is to quibble about their legal practices? Don't you fricken dare try to hide your antisemitism behind your misinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution and call that Conservatism you bigot. Our foreign policy is being determined by those officials we have appointed to do so, in furtherance of our national interests, according to our Constitution.
Israel is not our ally. https://www.wrongspeakpublishing.com/p/can-conservatives-uphold-the-us-constitution/comment/127348919
Israel, quite literally, IS our ally, by law, so don't even pretend to respect our laws and deny that basic fact.
Under U.S. law, Israel is formally designated as a Major Non-NATO Ally. This status provides benefits in defense trade and security cooperation and symbolizes the close relationship. Our two nations cooperate closely on intelligence sharing, counterterrorism efforts, and joint military exercises. Frankly, unless you've served in uniform yourself, the IDF has done more to defend our country than you have.
Ya but they have attacked American troops i.e. the U.S.S. Liberty. Plus Canada was our ally, we started a trade war with them. They aren't trying to drag us into an armed conflict.
Seriously? The Liberty incident was more than a half century ago and our own government investigation officially ruled that it was an accident. That is NOT a valid basis to make any claims about our current relationship with Israel.
Canada, OTOH, has been militarily freeloading on us for pretty much ever without upholding their own obligations while using tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers to promote a trade imbalance with us. Israel has been a much better ally to us than Canada has.
A single law does not subvert our constitution. You are confused as to precedence.
Nope, you're just making shit up out of thin air. Feel free to quote which line of our Constitution you think imposes any legal requirement on the citizens of other countries outside our borders. Israel isn't our colony, territory, or state, they don't fall under our legal jurisdiction by any possible interpretation of our Constitution. The law was passed by our elected representative in full compliance with our Constitution. Our foreign policy is working exactly as designed to advance our national interests.
You're striking me as someone who never acquired a native's or an exam-passing immigrant's understanding of the American Constitution. Interesting.
Article III Section 3 provides that giving aid or support to the enemy is treason. Justice Marshall explained how this applies even to indirect aka networked cause-and-effect connected aid. Israel defines itself as an enemy of our nation, and asserts that the actions it takes in pursuit of undermining our country are combat activities.
Search knesset combat public diplomacy on yandex. You can try google of course, but their results are managed and the company is compromised. You are looking for pages archived on ghostarchive.
Shrug, I not only know our Constitution itself, I went further and read both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers out of my own interest. AFAICT that puts me ahead of better than 99% of my fellow Americans when it comes to understanding our Constitution.
It's clear that I understand it better than you since you apparently aren't even grasping that the designation of "enemy" is one that OUR government must make for it to have any legal relevance under our laws and the designation our government has legally given Israel is 'Ally'. Nothing said or even legally passed by any foreign government overrules our own government in determining who we consider our allies and enemies. You are free to dislike that decision all you want, but it was made by our elected representatives in accordance with the foreign policy authority the Constitution gives them. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-foreign-policy-powers-congress-and-president
Well, you are wrong. You are pulling the same moves hasbara always do: 1/ claiming you haven't or wouldn't do what you've been doing all along ("harsh language "-- your rage over rejection of Israel's claim to special privileges has been apparent from the outset);
2/ the Talmudic argumentation method of swapping an irrelevancy into place of the actual concern. You are also deeply uninvested in actual constitutional and national integrity concerns, claim "tour of duty" all you like.
The IDF also "serve" in the middle east; your claim to have experience there is meaningless.
I don't have to shut up about Israel's attempts to undermine our various articles and amendments just because you don't like it, hasbara.
Allowing, on our side, or causing, on theirs, unregistered foreign agents to undermine our laws and our government is not a "thing countries can do" and remain an unproblematic ally. I guess you missed the fact that this sort of behavior tends to destroy international relations. But Israelis are so deluded as to their impunity, they never do understand how lawful or legitimate activity differs from unlawful or unfriendly.
Nonsense. The oath of office is to protect the Constitution and failure to do so by failing to recognize a foreign enemy who has stated their intention to undermine the Constitution is not a legitimate position.
It's very clear you are hasbara. Trying to elevate yourself by spurious claims that only attempt to catch up to your earlier failures to consider the Constitution is a very clear tell.
You are continually missing the small indicators. You're also demonstrating the well known Zionist contempt for American law while flying into low performing rages in defense of "Israel". There's nothing you can do to hide that.
Wow, tell me you're a full blown crazy antisemitic conspiracy theorist...
We, in accordance with our Constitution, have an entire government of appointed officials, President, Congress, and the Courts, who each have their assigned responsibilities regarding the law and foreign policy, who have the authority to make such determinations and have done so.
According to them, Israel is our ally. Frankly, as someone who has actually served multiple deployments to the Middle East, I quite agree that security cooperation with Israel serves our national interests, as does preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. Our President, in his role regarding foreign policy and Commander in Chief, may choose to provide Israel assistance under our existing treaty agreements. Our Congress, in their role regarding foreign policy, may choose to legally designate Israel otherwise if they collectively choose to, but unless and until they do so the existing law designating Israel as a Major Non-NATO Ally IS the law of the land.
You are free to disagree with our government and say so to your heart's content, but that doesn't make their choice of a foreign policy other than your preferred one qualify as 'unconstitutional'. Usually the only time I see someone online THIS wrong and conspiratorial is in "Sovereign Citizen" court cases. If you're deluded enough to think that you actually have a legal case for ANYTHING; impeachment, charges of treason, whatever else, either bring a lawsuit or run for office. Really though, you just strike me as bigot venting your spleen in a comment section for a cheap dopamine rush. I am a Conservative, Constitutionalist, Republican. Please do NOT associate yourself with any of those terms, it would be an embarrassment to the rest of us.
Repeating the laws that could pertain if Israel hadn't done what it has done is irrelevant. You continually demonstrate that you do not understand law, in a very fundamental way.
Appeal to authority that may have lost its authority is no argument at all.
Time and events do not stand still and events change what is required under law; clauses are triggered by events. Although, it is a common practice for *self-admitted* hasbara to try to collapse antagonistic conditions into one, and label the false set whatever it is that they think will get them what they want. It is a behavior you have in common with them, and have had throughout this tedious exchange. Granted it's also a sign of a struggling comprehension, your fits of rage *in favor of Israel* and your irrelevant grandstanding also point to hasbara.
Another tactic is to try to tell others how to view the person who's not letting you distribute bad information unchallenged. This goes along with your responding to questions about your propaganda involvement with a bunch of hyper-American sounding labels. But real conservative Americans tend to care a lot more about the form of law and whether or not politicians are meeting the national ideals.
I generally disdain harsh language, but nothing less seems appropriate here. You are comedically arrogant, ignorant, and idiotic. You apparently wouldn't recognize an actual patriot even if I sent you a picture of me in my full battle rattle on deployment in a combat zone. THIS "real conservative American" served two tours in Afghanistan after signing up during the surge. Pretty sure my patriotic bona fides beat yours. I have formally and officially been trained in the Constitution and my oath to it.
The person that fundamentally doesn't understand law here is you. Even in the extremely unlikely case that your fringe conspiracies had ANY basis in fact, which seems dubious at best, foreign influence operations (which is the correct category for what you've described) are not illegal in America. https://acf.sais.jhu.edu/distinguish-foreign-influence-foreign-interference.html Actors, either foreign or native, can legally advocate their positions here, even engage in outright propaganda. Nothing you have even accused them of, much less substantiated, much much less demonstrated actually sustained by any legal decision of any appointed official, even rises to the level of being illegal at all, much less high crime like enemy action or treason.
Israel has there constitution, we have ours.
Israel does not have a constitution. It has quasi-constitutional laws and has been unable to get them past the finish line. Furthermore its laws are religiously derived and it has relatively recently defined Israel as a Jewish, therefore religious, state.
Our country, under our constitution, is not supposed to be assisting a state establishment of religion.
Don't even try that "ethnicity" thing: there is not a Jewish race. The belief that there is is part of the religion and it is contrary to scientific fact.
The Knesset, in subcommittee, has stated that our 1st amendment is a problem for Israel's security goals and is a problem that Israel must make go away. American K-12 and the teaching of ideas that don't work for Israel was identified as part of the problem. The same subcommittee, which is in charge of Israel's hasbara and propaganda, has repeatedly stated that Israel's attempts to change our thoughts are combat activity. Israel is therefore actively seeking to undermine Americans' self-determination and our constitution. It is therefore contrary to American interests to support Israel in any way, shape or form, and as Israel considers its actions to be war actions, support for Israel could be treason.
Did you write about the J6 defendants in this same manner when they didn't get the same rights you are speaking of? They were held much longer without a speedy trial than what you are speaking of. Easy to point out speck in someone else's eye with the board in our own.
Sorry, but your bias is showing. You make a good case for our constitution, but fail to give any reason Israel should care. We don't hold Britain or any other "ally" to those standards, why Israel? Heck, we call Turkey an ally. Just think that through. And your case for the ICC 'warrants' is equally jaded. Four ICC judges have been sanctioned by the US gov't because they can't keep their bias in their pants. The only way they (or anyone) can claim "genocide" or "starvation" is to completely re-write the dictionary and change the definitions of both. Is what the IDF is doing wrong? Much of it, absolutely! But you paint with a very broad brush here, I think to hide the fact that you just don't like Israel. Steven has the right of it in his response. Serious double standard here.
I admire that you are willing to question the actions of "your side", John, but I think you're getting caught up in an unsuitable comparison. Israel is our ally, but it is not, nor has it ever been, the United States, or had our Constitution. We are technically politically allied with Pakistan as well, but they certainly have policies which would be rejected - if not looked upon as criminal - here. If we held every ally to our standards, we'd have no allies.
Also, Colonial America and contemporary Israel are vastly different scenarios. I understand your observation about holding fast to your principles even (and sometimes especially) in the face of adversity. But Israel has been on a life raft in the middle of an ocean, besieged since its inception by the surrounding sharks. That has necessitated many creative, outside-the-box approaches to maintaining their survival as a people. While I'm not saying I agree with everything Israel does or has done, none of us are in their shoes to legitimately criticize their actions.
Aside from some early settlement activity (not that they had any choice after the Shoah), everything which has been suffered by Arabs at the hands of Israelis could have been prevented by simply accepting their existence. Instead, they chose hatred.
Israel does what it feels it has to do, whether you or I or anyone else thinks differently. That shouldn't make them any less our ally.
ZL
The "Patriot Act"?
"Guantanamo Bay" ?
They aforementioned J6 defendants?
How can anyone support America?